Aimee Greenberg - Director, Actor, Writer - Ukraine Project

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,170 When you feeling it small. 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:05,830 Hello everybody. 3 00:00:05,830 --> 00:00:08,170 I hope you're not feeling too small today. 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,240 I hope you're feeling nice and tall. 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:19,120 This is Ray Renard and you have reached Green Room on Air, my little spot in the corner of the interwebs, how all you Greeny's doing today. 6 00:00:19,930 --> 00:00:22,270 It's so great that you stopped by again. 7 00:00:22,270 --> 00:00:25,000 And if this is your first time, let me tell you what we do here. 8 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:32,830 Mostly I interview people in the world of the performing arts, sometimes people you've never heard of, sometimes people you have. 9 00:00:33,430 --> 00:00:37,270 And today we have a very special guest for you. 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,270 And her name is Amy Greenberg. 11 00:00:41,050 --> 00:00:52,120 Amy's a true New Yorker, a true New Yorker, who's worked with some of the best teachers in the business like Sanford, Meisner, WY Handman, and Stella Adler. 12 00:00:52,765 --> 00:00:59,305 She's got some serious off Broadway creds as well, having cut her teeth at La Mama, et cetera. 13 00:00:59,755 --> 00:01:04,585 Theater for the New City and the Medicine Show Theater. 14 00:01:05,635 --> 00:01:13,615 Amy's collaborated with some of the big names in the industry too, like Grotowski Augusta Boal. 15 00:01:16,375 --> 00:01:28,195 She's also raked in quite a few prestigious awards and fellowships like the Asian Cultural Council Fellowship, and a whole bunch more with her wealth of knowledge and experience. 16 00:01:28,225 --> 00:01:36,985 Amy's been teaching performance technique, writing, directing theater and film studies at international conservatories and universities all across the country. 17 00:01:37,585 --> 00:01:40,705 So let's get into it folks. 18 00:01:41,260 --> 00:01:49,840 As we talked to Amy about her career experiences working with theater icons and what she thinks about the industry today. 19 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,370 Thanks for coming on today, Amy. 20 00:01:52,460 --> 00:01:54,110 How are you? Good. 21 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:54,380 All right. 22 00:01:54,380 --> 00:01:55,330 Thanks for having me. 23 00:01:55,470 --> 00:01:56,090 You bet. 24 00:01:56,570 --> 00:02:04,130 I, we just met recently, we we're working on this project together, the Ukraine project, right? Yeah. 25 00:02:04,130 --> 00:02:13,840 I think it's a, it's kind of like a, a hybrid project, a stage reading, but very sort of docudrama in form, I think, more than anything. 26 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:28,325 So it goes over the historical events in Ukraine, the Holden more the famine, the Maan revolution, and then, takes you up to date with some lovely poetry and, and the current war. 27 00:02:28,910 --> 00:02:33,800 It's a benefit for the Ivano Francoist. 28 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:34,250 Frank. 29 00:02:34,850 --> 00:02:37,430 Frank, I don't know if I'm saying it right. 30 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:54,830 Theater close enough in Ukraine, and I, I believe this is part two of this experience, that you were already involved in part one and, and did they raise money for a generator for the theater, or is that what they're doing now? I think, I think that's what they're doing now. 31 00:02:54,890 --> 00:02:58,250 Originally, it was just sort of a general fund. 32 00:02:58,250 --> 00:02:59,660 I don't know where the money went. 33 00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:03,350 I know it went to them and I, I think we raised a little over $3,000. 34 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:10,100 And they're, they're continuing to do productions and they're also housing people who have been affected by the war. 35 00:03:10,550 --> 00:03:10,940 Right. 36 00:03:11,270 --> 00:03:11,510 Apparently. 37 00:03:11,510 --> 00:03:11,830 Right. 38 00:03:12,110 --> 00:03:17,710 So, yeah, I mean, for me it feels good to, to feel like I'm doing something, Right. 39 00:03:19,295 --> 00:03:28,460 However tiny little effect it has if everybody just does a little bit and even has some good wishes or prayers, if you're religious and I get, things will help. 40 00:03:29,030 --> 00:03:41,450 So speaking of religion, so it's going to be Saturday, April 29th at 2:00 PM at the Ukrainian Music Hall and Event Center at the St. 41 00:03:41,450 --> 00:03:48,670 Michael Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is 3 45 seventh Street in San Francisco. 42 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,815 It's also sponsored by the Ukrainian American Coordinating Council. 43 00:03:53,305 --> 00:03:58,605 If you wanna get a ticket, you need to go on UK hist.org. 44 00:03:59,115 --> 00:04:01,035 That's exactly how it sounds. 45 00:04:01,065 --> 00:04:01,935 Short for history. 46 00:04:01,940 --> 00:04:05,415 So UK hist hst.org, 47 00:04:05,745 --> 00:04:09,415 and the event Bright pages there, you just press the ticket. 48 00:04:10,285 --> 00:04:16,555 Link, and you can make your donation there, or you can make it in person if you buy a ticket in person. 49 00:04:17,425 --> 00:04:23,125 So I think you can just go to Eventbrite and search on Ukraine on stage and it'll show up as well. 50 00:04:23,845 --> 00:04:24,295 Oh, okay. 51 00:04:24,295 --> 00:04:24,355 Yeah. 52 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,445 And I'll just put the link in the show notes so people can go directly to it. 53 00:04:28,045 --> 00:04:28,525 Right. 54 00:04:28,530 --> 00:04:28,785 Yeah. 55 00:04:28,785 --> 00:04:32,485 So yeah, I'm, I'm, I've just kind of organized this. 56 00:04:32,485 --> 00:04:38,755 I, I guess, I guess they asked a director to come in and give a, a third eye because you had too many cooks. 57 00:04:38,755 --> 00:04:39,175 Right. 58 00:04:39,325 --> 00:04:39,985 So, yeah. 59 00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:45,785 Well, well, we really didn't have a real, somebody who'd been a director in the past or have any experience really in directing. 60 00:04:45,815 --> 00:04:54,745 We had great, really good actor helping us out, but she, she wanted to find, help us find somebody else who directed, and I think she did. 61 00:04:54,745 --> 00:04:57,355 And, and that's how you got involved, right. 62 00:04:57,505 --> 00:04:58,705 So tell us about yourself. 63 00:04:58,705 --> 00:05:02,335 How did, how did you get started in theater? Oh, gosh. 64 00:05:02,445 --> 00:05:03,255 Middle school. 65 00:05:03,435 --> 00:05:07,445 Yeah, middle, middle school, drama, middle, middle school angst. 66 00:05:07,450 --> 00:05:17,810 And I think it saved, I think theater saved my life at some point, not just, that's a dramatic statement, but, it was the expressive tool and I continued it in high school. 67 00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:19,970 I was always a writer too though. 68 00:05:19,970 --> 00:05:27,900 But then I, I got into acting and in college I thought maybe I would study marine biology cuz I love the, the ocean. 69 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:29,420 But then I went back to theater. 70 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:32,840 So yeah, that's how I started. 71 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:34,520 It's been a long, long road. 72 00:05:35,255 --> 00:05:36,155 It was similar for me. 73 00:05:36,155 --> 00:05:44,125 I started in middle school and, and then like the guy who interviewed you on the other podcast I got into sports is I was listening to this. 74 00:05:44,125 --> 00:05:49,795 I was like, God, this is, I think he already did my podcast, but yeah, you two should connect. 75 00:05:50,695 --> 00:05:51,505 You should do a pod. 76 00:05:51,505 --> 00:05:53,725 You should be his guest on a podcast. 77 00:05:54,415 --> 00:05:54,685 Yeah. 78 00:05:54,685 --> 00:05:54,895 Yeah. 79 00:05:54,895 --> 00:06:07,405 So I remember, I think you and I are around this same age and we have kids around the same age, and I remember back when I was in high school and college, marine biology was like a, a kind of a big cool thing to do. 80 00:06:07,885 --> 00:06:08,245 Yeah. 81 00:06:08,315 --> 00:06:10,985 You used to have a lot of people say they wanted to be in. 82 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:18,680 Involved in marine biology, but, and then the math, the math came into the picture and I was like, oh, oh no. 83 00:06:19,340 --> 00:06:20,780 For me it was chemistry. 84 00:06:20,870 --> 00:06:21,860 Oh my God. 85 00:06:21,890 --> 00:06:22,250 Yeah. 86 00:06:22,310 --> 00:06:22,800 Yeah. 87 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,080 I, I still don't get it. 88 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:37,460 I, I mean all the, the hooking up, the little molecules and everything, I just right way beyond my capacity as a romantic aspect of, going out into the sea and, and, and, and touching sea life and, analyzing them. 89 00:06:37,460 --> 00:06:42,640 But it was a lot more technical Oh, it's way more scientific than that. 90 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:43,030 Yeah. 91 00:06:43,090 --> 00:06:46,300 It's not just playing with dolphins and talking to whales. 92 00:06:46,305 --> 00:06:47,270 Right, right. 93 00:06:47,270 --> 00:06:47,510 Yeah. 94 00:06:48,580 --> 00:06:54,560 So did you, did you go to school? Did you go to college or did you get a master's in anything that had to do with the I did. 95 00:06:54,570 --> 00:06:58,400 Or I Oh, where did you go? Well, I, I, I went to a bunch of schools. 96 00:06:59,270 --> 00:07:02,990 I went to Buffalo, I went to, I graduated from Queens College. 97 00:07:03,370 --> 00:07:06,350 I was briefly at N Y U, not, not really to. 98 00:07:07,435 --> 00:07:10,695 To, matriculate there, but just to do some work. 99 00:07:10,695 --> 00:07:15,115 And then I got well then I went, then I just studied in New York. 100 00:07:15,165 --> 00:07:23,870 the benefit of, of having New York City as your, your hometown and your playground as an actor was really invaluable. 101 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:30,010 because I could do, what they do at NYU is they farm, you pay a lot of money and then they farm you out to these acting studios. 102 00:07:30,015 --> 00:07:44,050 So I, I got my degree and also in, in film and English, and then I was able to go and study with Sandy Meisner and, and Stella Adler and, and Win Handman, who is Sandy Meisner's partner. 103 00:07:44,050 --> 00:07:45,940 And then he, he branched out on his own. 104 00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:53,270 He started the American Place Theater and he was just a phenomenal teacher, like a, an incredible influence on me. 105 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,600 And Wyn Handman was, yeah. 106 00:07:55,660 --> 00:07:56,080 Yeah. 107 00:07:56,330 --> 00:08:27,175 I mean, all of them were, but yeah, Wynn had a way of just getting, figuring out who you were, where you were at, and then, taking you where you're at in terms of characters and roles and, and, and scenes and playwrights and then, stretching you and having you play thing, play characters that you, you, you wouldn't get cast in necessarily, that you didn't, you weren't that type, So he was brutally honest, but he was kind and a kind curmudgeon. 108 00:08:27,685 --> 00:08:29,605 And I just learned a lot from him. 109 00:08:29,605 --> 00:08:35,995 We did a lot of material ranging from Sam Shepherd and, and every actor you can imagine. 110 00:08:35,995 --> 00:08:38,785 So we got some juicy material and. 111 00:08:39,265 --> 00:08:47,505 Yeah, I was honored and privileged to work with him and work with the people that he worked with and, be part of that small, small club. 112 00:08:47,985 --> 00:08:55,665 I wound up later on getting a master's in California for, for drama therapy, but that's, that's related, but different, but I won't talk about it right now. 113 00:08:55,845 --> 00:08:56,175 Okay. 114 00:08:58,035 --> 00:09:00,855 Not a lot of drama therapists around, I don't think. 115 00:09:01,515 --> 00:09:02,055 Yeah. 116 00:09:02,535 --> 00:09:02,925 Wow. 117 00:09:02,925 --> 00:09:06,375 So, I don't know a lot about Wyhand and it sounds very intriguing. 118 00:09:06,915 --> 00:09:13,095 Well, there's a great documentary on Netflix called, it Takes a Lunatic and you should watch it. 119 00:09:13,095 --> 00:09:14,295 It's all about him. 120 00:09:14,395 --> 00:09:17,365 It's, it's long, but yeah, it's fantastic. 121 00:09:17,455 --> 00:09:17,695 Okay. 122 00:09:17,695 --> 00:09:22,645 I am definitely going to watch that because I don't, I don't know a lot about him. 123 00:09:22,650 --> 00:09:25,645 Of course, I know a lot about Sandy Meisner and Stella Adler. 124 00:09:26,275 --> 00:09:26,635 Yeah. 125 00:09:26,635 --> 00:09:32,875 Well, he, he worked with Sandy for a long time and then, And then left and started his, his own thing. 126 00:09:32,975 --> 00:09:40,175 He died a couple years ago, I found out from Covid, and, and he was, he was like 94 and Yeah. 127 00:09:40,325 --> 00:09:40,805 Yeah. 128 00:09:41,435 --> 00:09:43,235 Well, at least he had a long life. 129 00:09:43,625 --> 00:09:43,985 Yep. 130 00:09:44,465 --> 00:09:55,535 Was he similar in Sandy Meiser in the way that he taught? Yeah, I mean he, he, Sandy took him under his wing and then, was his, he was like his protege, but he was like a different style. 131 00:09:55,535 --> 00:09:59,795 Sandy was extremely abrasive, but everyone loved him for that too. 132 00:09:59,795 --> 00:10:05,850 But, so, Sandy's big thing was repetition and those exercises related to that. 133 00:10:06,450 --> 00:10:12,840 When did a little bit of that, like during the scene study, if he would do different exercises to get you. 134 00:10:13,505 --> 00:10:26,935 More connected to the character or, more committed to the moment or figuring out what was lacking or missing or, he was very big on as ifs the imaginary as if Hmm. 135 00:10:27,025 --> 00:10:27,535 Yes. 136 00:10:27,635 --> 00:10:32,985 I think it, well I was playing Saint Joan and sort of like Michael Checkoff, I guess. 137 00:10:32,990 --> 00:10:34,175 Yeah, yeah. 138 00:10:34,595 --> 00:10:38,545 I remember he said to me, he gave me the role of Joan and Shaw, St. 139 00:10:38,550 --> 00:11:00,430 John and it was really a great, a great thing he did cuz it boosted my, my confidence and he was like, what do you, what do you feel like, what, what is the, as if and I think I said like, it's as if I'm holding the whole world, the world is just like this ball and I've got it in my hands and, it just like went right into the material and that was it. 140 00:11:00,430 --> 00:11:01,330 I love that. 141 00:11:01,915 --> 00:11:10,825 Yeah, I love that because it really helps you learn how to use your imagination and apply it to the scene. 142 00:11:11,095 --> 00:11:11,515 Yeah. 143 00:11:11,515 --> 00:11:15,445 He was very big on the imagination and the given circumstances, of course. 144 00:11:15,445 --> 00:11:24,920 And he just knew so much about every style, and, and so many playwrights that he had, he had worked with or, he just knew their material. 145 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,390 So there was neat. 146 00:11:27,290 --> 00:11:40,160 And Stella Adler, I, I took classes for about five years from a woman named Jean Shelton here in San Francisco, who was one of Stella Adler's longtime students. 147 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,430 And Stella had the reputation of being pretty, pretty rough on people, right? Yeah. 148 00:11:46,430 --> 00:11:47,620 I think, she was rough. 149 00:11:47,710 --> 00:11:48,160 She, she. 150 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,470 It's a, it's a stereotype. 151 00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:54,730 I mean, it's a, it's a generalization, but she, she tended to like men more than women. 152 00:11:55,330 --> 00:12:02,285 She tended to talk about Marlon Brando a lot, who she sort of cultivated and, brushed out into the world there. 153 00:12:02,290 --> 00:12:10,725 So she was very, very passionate and dramatic, would like rip her shirt or, do things if she was exasperated. 154 00:12:10,725 --> 00:12:12,135 And so that was her. 155 00:12:12,135 --> 00:12:16,605 She had someone Pearl who taught with her, which was, she was much more subdued. 156 00:12:17,235 --> 00:12:18,825 So I, I took some classes with her. 157 00:12:18,830 --> 00:12:22,155 Stella's script interpretation class was phenomenal. 158 00:12:22,245 --> 00:12:22,605 Yes. 159 00:12:22,610 --> 00:12:27,255 And, and so was Jean who, who learned from Stella, who was one of her proteges. 160 00:12:27,255 --> 00:12:31,545 And I learn, learned so much from that script analysis. 161 00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:31,985 Yeah. 162 00:12:32,145 --> 00:12:32,535 Yeah. 163 00:12:32,885 --> 00:12:40,455 And, and I find, I don't know about you, but a lot of newer actors these days, they don't. 164 00:12:40,845 --> 00:13:02,625 Understand the importance, and I'm not trying to dis anybody here, but I, it's, I was driven into me by her, by Jean, that it's so important to get into the details of every word and beat in the script and really understand what the author is trying to do, and be very, very specific about what it is that's in, in the words. 165 00:13:02,895 --> 00:13:04,305 And it's, yeah, super important. 166 00:13:04,595 --> 00:13:09,105 And the objectives and yeah, the objectives instead of ge being general about everything. 167 00:13:09,525 --> 00:13:15,795 Well, the, the u the young people, they, they, if they don't have the training, they don't have the patience. 168 00:13:15,795 --> 00:13:24,225 They don't have the attention span because, everything's very quick, quick moving, and, everything's very visual now. 169 00:13:24,225 --> 00:13:30,380 So, I mean, there are people that don't even read, there are lots of people that they can read, but they don't read anymore. 170 00:13:30,385 --> 00:13:35,291 So to make someone really dig into a script I don't know. 171 00:13:35,291 --> 00:13:41,150 I don't know how young, young actors that are working professionally, especially in film and tv. 172 00:13:41,150 --> 00:13:44,930 I, I don't know how they, they deal with it, but that's a whole other medium. 173 00:13:44,930 --> 00:13:45,050 No. 174 00:13:45,050 --> 00:13:45,290 Yeah. 175 00:13:45,295 --> 00:13:46,640 It's another, another thing. 176 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:55,370 But I just love how she taught us how to look at a script, sort of as if you had a microscope and you're really getting into it. 177 00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:58,820 And what does every moment mean to you at that, in that scene. 178 00:13:58,820 --> 00:14:02,660 And as the character, it's, I, it's just fascinating and I loved it anyway. 179 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:10,480 Can you tell me about the Dark Moon of Lilith? I was really intrigued by that on your website? Yeah. 180 00:14:10,690 --> 00:14:11,590 Oh, Lilith. 181 00:14:11,595 --> 00:14:13,340 I, I love that piece. 182 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:20,200 things come to me when I'm creating something, that's original, like an image flies outta nowhere. 183 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:23,020 And that's usually like the first image. 184 00:14:23,410 --> 00:14:31,350 The primary image for me, in, in creating my own work image is essential, image as metaphor, and that's how it starts. 185 00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:42,420 I, I, I don't remember what the first image was with Lilith, but I would, if I looked at the beginning of the script, which I can no longer find, cuz it was done on another computer and I disappeared. 186 00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:45,420 But I have video of it, so I transcribe it. 187 00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:47,270 But anyway, that's another story. 188 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:58,250 Ancient technology, right? Oh, you can use AI actually now to, you could, if you have a video, it can listen to the words and translate the whole thing and I can show you how to do that later. 189 00:14:58,760 --> 00:14:59,360 Okay, cool. 190 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:00,320 If you're interested. 191 00:15:00,370 --> 00:15:01,370 So, and it's really easy. 192 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:15,330 I was like, I was intrigued with the goddess and this, this, there was a lot of material, a lot of literature, this book about the sacred prostitutes from way, way, way back. 193 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:30,560 And there were all these connections that I was making with like a Lilith, the Lilith from the Bible as some, some evil, evil, evil woman, the evil side of Eve, and a modern day, what would be like a modern day Lilith. 194 00:15:30,590 --> 00:15:32,110 And yeah. 195 00:15:32,170 --> 00:15:34,480 So there was just a lot going on for me. 196 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:47,160 And at the same time, I was digging into research about this serial killer who I wound up going to high school with and who lived at the end of my block when I grew up. 197 00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:56,030 So I somehow incorporated his story into all the Lils were like either feminine or masculine. 198 00:15:56,035 --> 00:15:58,410 They were Lilith and, and, and Liam. 199 00:15:58,410 --> 00:16:00,540 He was, he was the serial killer. 200 00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:02,370 And I had another version of Lilith. 201 00:16:02,375 --> 00:16:09,660 I can't remember the name right now, but, so a and I used a lot of like physical, it was very, very physical. 202 00:16:09,665 --> 00:16:12,690 I used mask, I used found objects. 203 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:18,010 I used a lot of vocal, I did a lot of vocal work and like sound work and. 204 00:16:19,465 --> 00:16:26,155 Yeah, I created this thing about the story of Lilith going like all the way back to, the witches, to the modern day. 205 00:16:26,155 --> 00:16:35,765 And it was all vocalized and it was really like, I used video, I used, I was I did a lot of like, very specific isolated movement, like Pluto in it. 206 00:16:36,165 --> 00:16:37,450 I made the costumes. 207 00:16:37,450 --> 00:16:50,600 I created this seaweed mandala that every night I would, I would've to dr every weekend every performance I would have to get a new bunch of seaweed from the ocean, right? There's the ocean again. 208 00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:52,850 Clean it, dry it. 209 00:16:52,850 --> 00:17:04,940 And then I would like, I would paint it, I would put flowers in it, and then the opening scene, I would come out of this mound of seaweed with masks on, and I would go back into the mound to change the masks. 210 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:06,500 So it was all the faces of Lilith. 211 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:12,740 And it was, it was an incredibly, what's the word? Labor intensive show. 212 00:17:13,145 --> 00:17:24,990 And it was very successful in, in the world that, it was in, I did a lot of one woman shows a lot of LA women's festival in la I was at the Carpenter se Carpenter Center in Long Beach. 213 00:17:24,990 --> 00:17:27,750 I took it to Finland for a women's festival. 214 00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:31,630 It was down at sushi in San Diego when sushi was alive. 215 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,220 That's where I premiered it, I think. 216 00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:33,580 Yeah. 217 00:17:34,270 --> 00:17:39,760 So, and I was also pregnant with my daughter, three months pregnant when I first did it. 218 00:17:39,765 --> 00:17:42,280 So that was really interesting. 219 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:57,320 So this was a one person show, Lilith? It was, it was, it was me and at one point, oh no, I think I had at Huntington Beach first with a violinist on stage and yeah, she wasn't always with me, but. 220 00:17:58,545 --> 00:18:07,845 it sounds very avantgarde, so I, I guess it was, yeah, it was, it was that one, swinging back in time and to the present and the future. 221 00:18:07,845 --> 00:18:13,055 And my chiropractor had given me like one of those spines that they have, Yeah. 222 00:18:13,315 --> 00:18:14,905 And he said I could just keep it. 223 00:18:14,905 --> 00:18:20,785 So I used that a and I had a pomegranate in, in, in the pelvic area that sat there. 224 00:18:20,785 --> 00:18:26,065 And I also use these masks that they use when you have radiation, like on your face. 225 00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:27,930 they make a, like a knitted mask. 226 00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:35,100 So I hung those and I was able to kind of put my face in it and suspend myself and very, very cool. 227 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:35,670 Neat. 228 00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:38,490 Oh, I think I saw a picture of that on your website. 229 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:39,060 Yeah. 230 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:39,900 Mm-hmm. 231 00:18:39,901 --> 00:18:46,530 Yeah, you should bring that, you should do it again and bring it to the Fringe festival that they have in France. 232 00:18:46,530 --> 00:18:47,910 It's similar to Edinburgh. 233 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:49,050 Oh yeah. 234 00:18:49,050 --> 00:18:49,380 Love it. 235 00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:51,810 I think I'm too old for it now. 236 00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:58,280 Physic You did this in the late nineties? Yeah, I did it in the nineties and the I maybe early, maybe 2000. 237 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,800 I, I don't know, I, I don't know when I stopped. 238 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,630 I think it said 94 to 98. 239 00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:03,320 Yeah. 240 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,070 Yeah. 241 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,185 Gosh, I can't think, I don't have the physical I don't know. 242 00:19:07,185 --> 00:19:08,715 I could probably, yeah. 243 00:19:08,715 --> 00:19:10,035 You'd have to adapt it maybe. 244 00:19:10,035 --> 00:19:10,365 Yeah. 245 00:19:10,815 --> 00:19:11,025 Yeah. 246 00:19:11,030 --> 00:19:13,125 But think a lot of times passed. 247 00:19:13,665 --> 00:19:13,995 Right. 248 00:19:15,105 --> 00:19:16,485 I, that blows my mind. 249 00:19:16,490 --> 00:19:18,225 I mean, I think, oh, that wasn't that long ago. 250 00:19:18,225 --> 00:19:18,975 Oh yeah, it was. 251 00:19:19,245 --> 00:19:20,205 That's a long time ago. 252 00:19:20,205 --> 00:19:20,365 Yeah. 253 00:19:20,435 --> 00:19:20,925 Yeah. 254 00:19:23,745 --> 00:19:33,375 So it sounds like you enjoy plays that explore, and you've said this on your website, dystopian worlds and identity and alienation and loss. 255 00:19:33,795 --> 00:19:33,885 Mm-hmm. 256 00:19:34,695 --> 00:19:39,375 What can you tell me about that? It sounds like Lilith was sort of in that ilk. 257 00:19:40,515 --> 00:19:41,085 Yeah. 258 00:19:41,085 --> 00:19:51,720 I, I think that, All my plays that were, original work, solo or ensemble, I mean, and things that I've written and plays I'm drawn to. 259 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:59,560 I think loss and identity and alienation tho those are like recurring themes for me. 260 00:19:59,660 --> 00:20:05,810 I have my own personal story of, having lost my mother at a very long age very long, very, very early age. 261 00:20:05,910 --> 00:20:07,350 And I'm adopted. 262 00:20:07,380 --> 00:20:18,275 there are just things that are built into that, that, that are part of my d n a literally that evoke that, that this theme keeps returning and, and also is strange. 263 00:20:18,665 --> 00:20:29,325 But, there's something about the, the Holocaust experience that in one form or another, returns to a lot of things I do, whether it's just a German character or. 264 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:43,710 Something literal from that time, or, one of the plays I wrote, light Falling Down was inspired by five years of interviews with women who, from Southern California who survived the, the show the, or the Holocaust. 265 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:45,300 I didn't seek it out. 266 00:20:45,330 --> 00:20:48,715 They just sort of came to me and, they would wanna tell me their story. 267 00:20:49,165 --> 00:20:52,165 And then I had all these stories, I didn't know quite what to do with. 268 00:20:53,005 --> 00:20:59,935 So, and even in Lilith there's an entertainer who's, from, from f from the Holocaust who has to entertain for the Germans. 269 00:21:00,015 --> 00:21:02,595 So, I don't know where that comes from. 270 00:21:02,595 --> 00:21:04,605 Like, I mean, I have family way back. 271 00:21:04,605 --> 00:21:08,255 I have no idea who they were, but they were part of that. 272 00:21:08,355 --> 00:21:19,185 But, well it seems like from my experience, people who've grown up in Jewish households have a lot of sort of historical. 273 00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:23,460 Grief around that whole horrible situation. 274 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:25,710 And I would guess that's where it comes from. 275 00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:26,970 Yeah. 276 00:21:27,030 --> 00:21:42,935 They, they have a word for it now, a, a term I forgot, but it has to do with, like the, the d n a has this memory and I forgot what they, what they call it now, which is why, four generations forward, someone is still suffering because it's part of them. 277 00:21:42,935 --> 00:21:54,235 And the same thing with the slave experience, yes, they've learned that your D n A can actually change from trauma, which is they didn't, they had no idea that that was possible before. 278 00:21:54,685 --> 00:21:56,125 And they know that it does now. 279 00:21:56,545 --> 00:21:58,465 That's incredible actually. 280 00:21:58,465 --> 00:21:59,295 It is incredible. 281 00:21:59,665 --> 00:21:59,905 Yeah. 282 00:21:59,910 --> 00:22:05,360 And, and I sort of, I think we always knew it on some level, a metaphysical level, spiritual level. 283 00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:28,150 The, the ensemble piece that I did I directed and wrote and had a small part in and produced before I left San Diego, American Carnage, A love story that is also, I'm, I'm, I'm looking like it's, it was, it was in some ways really a ahead of its moment, but I, I call it an unlikely love story. 284 00:22:28,150 --> 00:22:30,575 it's like sci-fi, it's part thriller. 285 00:22:31,035 --> 00:22:39,205 And I, and it, I was, I was inspired to write it after the whole, Trump, the year of Trump the year after he became president. 286 00:22:39,205 --> 00:23:11,030 And that, that pivotal moment where I say in, there's a character who's, who's Caligula, but he's really Trump, he's really a lot of dictators in this piece, and he has a monologue and there's a, there's a moment where the screen went from blue to red, like literally when he became president, it was the Obama transition, and then it was this fire engine red, and, the, the flag came on and the static and the anthem, So and I was just kind of, it was that year after where everything was unbelievable. 287 00:23:11,030 --> 00:23:17,870 It was like one thing after another of, of such a high theater that you couldn't even, you couldn't write this stuff. 288 00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:19,880 So that was my inspiration. 289 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:30,765 And then out of that, I don't know, king, this character, Y m l stands for young male lead, who's an Octa bot, cuz now we're, we're also transitioning into AI and into the, the robot. 290 00:23:31,465 --> 00:23:34,915 So he's an Okta bot, which is, he's evolved from like a species. 291 00:23:34,915 --> 00:23:37,555 So he's part, part robot, part human. 292 00:23:38,155 --> 00:23:48,085 And he's exposed to the, the echoes of the second millennium popular culture, which triggers these feelings in him from the, the, the Museum of Obsolete Media. 293 00:23:48,595 --> 00:23:50,795 And he didn't expect to have these feelings. 294 00:23:50,795 --> 00:24:10,915 He's kind of set up and he thinks he's playing like a video game, but it's real life and he's tasked to like, eliminate people, really it's like a, a genocide, right? So that was my foray into, l a more literal, dystopian, world sort of science fiction, dystopian impression. 295 00:24:12,265 --> 00:24:12,755 Yeah. 296 00:24:12,755 --> 00:24:13,515 All at once. 297 00:24:13,755 --> 00:24:30,415 And I, I, yeah, I, it's when, when I read about that play and you did that five or six years ago, what it made me ask myself is I wonder if Amy had any idea how bad it could have gotten after that. 298 00:24:30,985 --> 00:24:41,980 Like, So many things kept happening in this country because of Trump and his creation of carnage, or whatever you wanna call it. 299 00:24:42,730 --> 00:24:56,330 Did, what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I think I was ta tapping into something and this, this could still be done now, and the, and, and with the, more technical fireworks than than ever. 300 00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:01,260 I, I mean, I had a, a hologram presence, but I didn't use, use an actual hologram. 301 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:05,250 I had projections, but now I could use vr. 302 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:09,090 I mean, but, but content wise, I mean, I had, yeah, right. 303 00:25:09,090 --> 00:25:11,820 I had no idea how, how bad it could get. 304 00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:21,320 And of course, what was around the corner was the, the pandemic, maybe you could add that in and, and, and re and produce it over with the pandemic in, in, in the story. 305 00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:22,600 Yeah. 306 00:25:22,605 --> 00:25:30,910 I still have the flats and storage, and it's just, I never got rid of the set and I don't know, but I never, I just, I don't know. 307 00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:40,560 It's not the right moment, It's gotta be like the right time and place and moment and I don't know who's interested in this kind of work here, but where I am right now. 308 00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:41,760 But that's another thing. 309 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,080 I mean, there was a time in the Bay Area when people were doing a lot of that kind of work. 310 00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:49,920 Yeah. 311 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,250 George Coats maybe 30, 40, 50 years ago. 312 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:54,050 Yeah. 313 00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:55,490 Even, even, I don't know. 314 00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:57,330 I remember coming up 15. 315 00:25:57,570 --> 00:25:57,930 Yeah. 316 00:25:57,930 --> 00:25:58,980 George Coats. 317 00:25:59,070 --> 00:26:00,180 He was phenomenal. 318 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:00,890 Yeah. 319 00:26:01,470 --> 00:26:04,110 God, I guess it was a long time ago. 320 00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:06,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 321 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,500 Things have changed. 322 00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:14,175 It's a little bit more mainstream now, I would say, but, Who knows, things go in cycles. 323 00:26:14,625 --> 00:26:14,925 Right. 324 00:26:16,965 --> 00:26:21,765 What do you see as the biggest challenges facing our industry in the next few years? Hmm. 325 00:26:21,765 --> 00:26:22,905 I knew you were gonna ask me that. 326 00:26:24,625 --> 00:26:29,955 Do you want the answer? I, I would like to say, or the answer I should say Whatever you want. 327 00:26:29,955 --> 00:26:36,465 I mean, I would like the answer that you would like to say if you're feel, if you feel comfortable with it. 328 00:26:36,465 --> 00:26:38,265 Well, I, I think there's a few challenges. 329 00:26:38,265 --> 00:26:42,645 One is the pandemic showed us that theater is disposable. 330 00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:45,355 And and what? That's disposable. 331 00:26:45,775 --> 00:26:51,255 What, what do you mean it's disposable? Well, we can shut down everything, including theater. 332 00:26:51,615 --> 00:26:53,935 And I, I, theater has always struggled. 333 00:26:53,935 --> 00:26:56,215 It's always been hard to do what we do. 334 00:26:56,695 --> 00:27:00,515 And then, and then add to that, that, people don't wanna go outside. 335 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,075 They don't wanna sit next to you. 336 00:27:02,075 --> 00:27:03,665 They don't wanna breathe your air. 337 00:27:03,935 --> 00:27:06,785 They don't wanna be in a closed space with no windows. 338 00:27:07,175 --> 00:27:07,875 They'll go out to dinner. 339 00:27:08,610 --> 00:27:11,510 And maybe get covid from a waiter, but, or someone else. 340 00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:13,040 But they, they won't go to theater. 341 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,430 So attendance has really fallen. 342 00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:16,910 Mm-hmm. 343 00:27:17,155 --> 00:27:20,620 And subscription based is challenged. 344 00:27:20,625 --> 00:27:28,995 people are getting older and aging out of, of theater, so they have, theater has to find a new audience that can afford to go to theater. 345 00:27:29,445 --> 00:27:35,625 So then you, places like Williamstown Theater Festival, they're, they're doing a lot less produ producing. 346 00:27:36,015 --> 00:27:40,725 So they don't have as many shows, but because of that, they're not making the money they need. 347 00:27:40,725 --> 00:27:43,305 So it's a, where are they located? Massachusetts. 348 00:27:43,535 --> 00:27:44,025 Okay. 349 00:27:44,295 --> 00:27:51,520 They're a big, house that, that does some great work that goes on, or, but they've had, some, some issues come up. 350 00:27:51,610 --> 00:27:58,910 I, I mean, so, and I think, but from the, the digital our transfer to the digital medium has showed us that. 351 00:27:59,330 --> 00:28:00,950 It's not going away either. 352 00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:16,300 So I think theater has to pivot and has to incorporate some aspect of the digital medium, whether it's XR or vr or relying more on projections or zoom in. 353 00:28:16,305 --> 00:28:17,970 Its many manifestations. 354 00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:25,455 I mean, I don't know if pure theater can sustain, that's gonna be a big question. 355 00:28:25,945 --> 00:28:29,545 I think in the, in the next coming years, the new generation. 356 00:28:30,085 --> 00:28:40,525 And maybe it shouldn't because I've always been interested in using other materials, and using multimedia, interdisciplinary, whatever. 357 00:28:40,525 --> 00:28:48,855 I mean, not always, but I, I just saw a Doll's house in New York on Broadway, and it was all, it was all minimal. 358 00:28:48,885 --> 00:28:52,465 they didn't really have a set except for something in the center that turned around. 359 00:28:53,250 --> 00:28:58,480 Circle the lighting was black and, very stark, lot of shadows. 360 00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,620 They just wore black. 361 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,030 There were no props. 362 00:29:01,570 --> 00:29:09,460 Yeah, I read about that in the Times and it, they, they pulled it off, and it was like, if you have very solid acting and directing, you can do it. 363 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,090 Mm-hmm. 364 00:29:10,190 --> 00:29:10,910 Extraordinary. 365 00:29:10,910 --> 00:29:14,840 Not just solid, but, so I think that's one challenge. 366 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:29,990 And another challenge is, I don't know how quite to say it, but I mean we're, we're gonna have to come to terms with the polarization that exists now between, you mean within the community of, of theater makers? Yeah. 367 00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:34,790 Between young theater makers and, and older theater makers. 368 00:29:34,790 --> 00:29:43,880 Between white theater makers and bipo theater makers, and who can do what and what's allowed to be done and what's allowed to be said. 369 00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:53,590 And how, how close we're gonna ride within the margins and what the cross-cultural, if any experience is going to be. 370 00:29:54,070 --> 00:30:21,030 And, and what, what do we think theater is? What, what, what do we wanna create in the future? What is the new generation we wanna create? Is it only based on, identity politics and very, very literal, or is there still a place for, images, metaphor for, art for art's sake? And then, the, the universal univers universality of that. 371 00:30:21,030 --> 00:30:30,850 And, does, do the politics come out of the art? Does the message come out of the art? but art for art's sake is kind of a dirty, dirty phrase right now. 372 00:30:31,330 --> 00:30:41,030 And I, I, I, and when I was listening to the other podcast episode that you did a few years ago with the, with the other folks there, I forget the name of the podcast, intellect Yuel. 373 00:30:41,035 --> 00:30:41,360 Yes. 374 00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:53,460 And again, I'm not criticizing anybody here, but I just noticed at the end he said something like yes, we as artists are, have a responsibility to tell people what they can and cannot say. 375 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,140 And I just wanted to like heave because I just totally don't agree with that. 376 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:06,780 I, I think that artists should be able to say what they wanna say, and if you don't like it, you can say you don't like it. 377 00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:09,390 If you like it, you can say you like it. 378 00:31:09,450 --> 00:31:26,730 But the whole, the literal, the literalism and the, the policing of what is okay to do and what isn't, I think that just kills things because we, as artists, you need to push the limits in whatever direction you want, and people can decide for themselves what they like and don't like. 379 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:32,240 That's why, I mean, that's what art, art as anarchy is supposed to be, Yeah. 380 00:31:32,250 --> 00:31:35,550 I mean, there are things that I just, I can't, I can't do here. 381 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:51,345 I I will not, I didn't think I could do them in the Bay Area and I, I mean, in San Diego, and I did them, but I felt like, the majority was more, more traditional work and, tourist based, and there's a strong military presence there. 382 00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:59,175 But here it's like the other reason, people say, well, why don't you do this? And why don't you do that? And why don't you do, and I'm like, no, I can't do that here. 383 00:31:59,585 --> 00:32:01,215 I I I'm not gonna do that. 384 00:32:01,245 --> 00:32:02,415 I'm not gonna produce that. 385 00:32:02,865 --> 00:32:05,115 I'm not gonna direct a play like that here. 386 00:32:05,165 --> 00:32:07,705 So, and that's a recent phenomenon, San Francisco. 387 00:32:07,715 --> 00:32:12,805 And, and that's what I'm having trouble coming to terms with because I, I've grew up in this area. 388 00:32:12,805 --> 00:32:17,935 I've, I've lived here my whole life and I've been acting and directing here most of my life. 389 00:32:18,535 --> 00:32:27,915 And I, I'm having a hard time getting used to this, this whole sort of thing where it's okay to, to say certain things and it's not okay to say other things. 390 00:32:27,915 --> 00:32:41,475 And I always enjoyed the freedom and, and the ability to express ourselves as artists in San Francisco and be accepted or not, but not be condemned. 391 00:32:43,005 --> 00:32:45,975 And now you have to worry about every little thing you say and do. 392 00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:49,535 And I, I maybe I'm too, being too blunt about it, but that's how I feel. 393 00:32:49,785 --> 00:32:55,230 It would be great to have like a Lenny Bruce equivalent, do a comedy routine about this. 394 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,540 It would, and it, it'd have to be good at it. 395 00:32:57,540 --> 00:33:00,090 I mean, George Carlin used to be really good at it. 396 00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:02,965 he wasn't from San Francisco, of course, but we need people like that. 397 00:33:04,585 --> 00:33:10,555 Chris Rock, his latest show on Netflix, selective outrage is hilarious. 398 00:33:10,555 --> 00:33:11,485 I mean, we're gonna have to watch it. 399 00:33:11,875 --> 00:33:14,485 He talks about, don't fall into the woke trap. 400 00:33:15,010 --> 00:33:15,280 Yeah. 401 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,420 And it's like, and if you say that to a lot of progressive people, they get so angry. 402 00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:20,230 Yeah. 403 00:33:20,590 --> 00:33:24,310 And, and then they call you a Republican and a maga. 404 00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:32,410 And I, I think there's a good, I just, I don't even want to use the word woke anymore because it, it, it is so loaded now. 405 00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:32,950 Yeah. 406 00:33:33,250 --> 00:33:36,890 I, somebody said to me that the Bay Area is very binary. 407 00:33:37,340 --> 00:33:39,530 The theater world is very binary. 408 00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:42,905 In what sense? either or, right? Mm-hmm. 409 00:33:43,235 --> 00:33:43,475 Yeah. 410 00:33:43,955 --> 00:33:52,320 I mean, non-binary is, is term used, to about, to denote gender or the lack of gender, or the flexibility of, of, of gender. 411 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:52,650 Right. 412 00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:55,270 But, she said it's very binary here. 413 00:33:55,270 --> 00:33:56,380 It's either this or that. 414 00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:58,330 Yes, you're this or you're that. 415 00:33:58,390 --> 00:34:00,280 You're with us or you're against us. 416 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:00,640 Right. 417 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,020 Whatever group it happens to be. 418 00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:10,760 And, and, and, and there's no hesitancy to to call you out on things without even trying to understand where you're coming from. 419 00:34:11,780 --> 00:34:12,410 Yeah. 420 00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:14,700 And some of it's generational too. 421 00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:24,550 I, I feel like there's very little respect for people who have come before, who have a lot of experience who, may have some something to impart. 422 00:34:24,820 --> 00:34:26,590 there, there's no, no interest in that. 423 00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:28,090 No, no. 424 00:34:28,090 --> 00:34:28,930 There, there isn't. 425 00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:33,460 I even ha, I have, I have those conflicts with my own 20 year old son. 426 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:41,900 He, there's sort of a, and, and of course, young people always believe that they're smarter than the old, right? I mean, I did. 427 00:34:42,170 --> 00:34:45,200 But it's to the point now where they're absolutely sure about it. 428 00:34:46,250 --> 00:34:55,970 And I, and maybe I'm just become an old curmudgeon, but I can't figure, I'm just having a hard time figuring out how to, to navigate that whole sort of phenomena. 429 00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:59,360 But it's like, it's as if we don't know anything. 430 00:34:59,420 --> 00:35:06,170 We just don't, we just aren't up on the latest intellectual Understanding of how people should be in society. 431 00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:08,450 I'm trying to see it as a learning experience. 432 00:35:08,450 --> 00:35:08,720 Now. 433 00:35:11,630 --> 00:35:18,950 Gosh, you've won lots of awards, the Asian Cultural Council Fellowship, is that the one where you went to Japan? It it is, yeah. 434 00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:22,100 Can I hear about that? I, that I found that really interesting. 435 00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:23,570 Yeah, that was great. 436 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:42,175 I, I did, I, there was a time, there was a time where grants were really plentiful and it's a little harder now, but I self-taught, self-taught grant writer and gave them the lingo they wanted to hear and got the grants most of the time and, and, and followed through. 437 00:35:42,175 --> 00:35:47,490 But, I just taught myself the, the language and that was one of the best ones. 438 00:35:47,495 --> 00:35:51,850 And, when I got the grant, they basically like gave me the money and. 439 00:35:52,605 --> 00:36:06,135 Connected me to someone from, I think the Japan Society who gave me some names and connected me to this, no, this American who was living in Japan forever as a, a no master in teacher. 440 00:36:06,135 --> 00:36:09,615 And he had the biggest house in Tokyo, so I stayed with him. 441 00:36:09,620 --> 00:36:14,495 But could you tell us what no theater is so that people know what you're talking about? Yeah. 442 00:36:14,615 --> 00:36:28,525 No is the classical theater of Japan and they use masks that represent characters that are like beautifully painted masks and they don't cover the whole face deliberately. 443 00:36:28,930 --> 00:36:31,390 And it's a, it's a dance movement. 444 00:36:31,450 --> 00:36:33,310 It has a whole vocabulary. 445 00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:36,430 It's extremely slow, meticulous. 446 00:36:36,430 --> 00:36:42,520 You wear certain shoes, you move on stage a certain way with lifting the foot, putting it down. 447 00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,890 You open the fan a certain way. 448 00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:49,340 And they have all these set dances, like, like a, a classical repertoire. 449 00:36:49,870 --> 00:36:52,690 And they have like the bridge that goes to heaven. 450 00:36:52,690 --> 00:36:57,570 There's always on the set, Kyogen is the comedic side of No. 451 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,840 And they play a certain music on stage. 452 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,960 I forgot the name of the, the primary instrument right now. 453 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,195 But that is always a accompanying, accompanying the piece. 454 00:37:08,305 --> 00:37:08,995 It's beautiful. 455 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:09,835 It's very hard. 456 00:37:09,835 --> 00:37:16,905 I was able to perform on the national No stage, and they sew you into your kimono, And yeah it was really, really hard. 457 00:37:16,905 --> 00:37:17,895 I, I. 458 00:37:18,795 --> 00:37:21,765 Actually studied Bau more than no when I was there. 459 00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:25,935 What is bau? Bau is like the anco bau. 460 00:37:25,935 --> 00:37:30,305 It's the, it's the, it's the dance of darkness, it's called it's more symbolic. 461 00:37:30,365 --> 00:37:33,095 It, it's symbolic and metaphoric in a different way. 462 00:37:33,545 --> 00:37:46,455 And it came about post-war, post World War II after, Hiroshima and hijita was like the, the, I guess the founder of, of BAU in a way. 463 00:37:46,455 --> 00:37:51,555 But then there's Kazuo a lot of, a lot of different masters. 464 00:37:51,555 --> 00:37:57,275 I don't know if you remember know of Sanaii Juku, they, they kind of, they've toured all over America. 465 00:37:57,605 --> 00:38:06,485 I studied with them and I interviewed a lot of the masters, min Tanaka who had a farm where he would like teach people how to. 466 00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:11,210 How to work on the farm and, and like kind of almost break down your body. 467 00:38:11,210 --> 00:38:16,160 And then you can also learn Bau it the same way I, I planted rice on that farm. 468 00:38:16,730 --> 00:38:25,960 But very physical, very, very slow movement and very, very fast movement and a lot of a, using a lot of imagery. 469 00:38:26,380 --> 00:38:28,390 Exhausting, exhausting work. 470 00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:30,060 It's the best way to describe it. 471 00:38:30,065 --> 00:38:46,405 it's a, they wear a lot of white, white, almost white face, but not, not in the traditional clown sense, but not always, but a lot of times Whiteface white body, done in the nude, done barely any clothing done with costume. 472 00:38:46,410 --> 00:38:47,875 Like, it, it just depends. 473 00:38:47,985 --> 00:38:48,915 It's fascinating. 474 00:38:49,155 --> 00:38:49,815 Fascinating. 475 00:38:49,845 --> 00:38:55,875 So I studied that and I studied little Kabuki and little Bunraku, which is their classical, puppetry form. 476 00:38:56,475 --> 00:38:59,295 Basically I was given money and said, do whatever you wanna do. 477 00:38:59,625 --> 00:39:03,945 Write us a little note at the end of what your trip was like, and have a good time. 478 00:39:03,995 --> 00:39:05,885 what an incredible experience. 479 00:39:05,885 --> 00:39:08,585 And I was very nervous cuz it was so unstructured. 480 00:39:08,585 --> 00:39:13,475 But they said, you're gonna, you're gonna look at this as the best grant you ever got. 481 00:39:13,505 --> 00:39:26,405 And they were right Cause the people I met that were doing what I was doing or trying to, were teaching English all day and, and then trying to have to study and, and or perform and go to go to plays. 482 00:39:26,405 --> 00:39:33,510 And I saw so much theater and dance and I went to Hokkaido too, which was, completely different culture. 483 00:39:33,780 --> 00:39:39,900 And saw some rituals and festivals and I went to Kyoto and Yeah, I had a great time. 484 00:39:40,170 --> 00:39:41,070 I had a great time. 485 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:50,700 When was this and how long? I was there for four months and it was this 90, 95, 19 95. 486 00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:51,180 Yeah. 487 00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:54,150 What an incredible experience feel like a dinosaur. 488 00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:54,750 Yeah. 489 00:39:54,810 --> 00:40:03,905 The year before I went to Russia, and that was an experience working with a theater there because they were recently had transitioned sort of, out of communism. 490 00:40:04,595 --> 00:40:05,675 So that was interesting. 491 00:40:05,675 --> 00:40:07,095 And then I went to Japan. 492 00:40:07,095 --> 00:40:07,425 Yeah. 493 00:40:07,875 --> 00:40:16,645 What did you do in Russia? I taught and I directed at the at this experimental theater c and conservatory in Pushkin. 494 00:40:17,425 --> 00:40:23,125 Where, St where Catherine the greats castle was a little, little city outside of St. 495 00:40:23,130 --> 00:40:23,875 Petersburg. 496 00:40:24,305 --> 00:40:25,295 Very interesting. 497 00:40:25,685 --> 00:40:26,015 Yeah. 498 00:40:26,525 --> 00:40:28,505 So, wow, that was cool. 499 00:40:28,955 --> 00:40:29,075 Wow. 500 00:40:29,075 --> 00:40:30,845 You've had so many great experiences. 501 00:40:31,925 --> 00:40:32,555 Yeah. 502 00:40:32,645 --> 00:40:42,175 I have to remind myself that when I feel like, in those dry times when you're not doing anything theater related, that's the thing about this whole profession. 503 00:40:42,175 --> 00:40:50,845 It's like you always think back and say, oh, those were the good times when I was doing all the wonderful things and now I'm not doing anything. 504 00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:54,835 But you don't know cuz things come up or you can make things happen sometimes. 505 00:40:54,835 --> 00:40:54,925 Yeah. 506 00:40:55,435 --> 00:40:58,725 I, I think that that's, that's what people have to do and hold on to. 507 00:40:59,325 --> 00:41:01,605 You can't just wait for someone to give you a gig. 508 00:41:01,785 --> 00:41:03,165 You gotta create your own work. 509 00:41:03,615 --> 00:41:04,935 You do, you do. 510 00:41:04,935 --> 00:41:07,305 Especially as time goes on in the decades. 511 00:41:07,815 --> 00:41:08,865 Keep moving forward. 512 00:41:11,235 --> 00:41:21,875 I had a little bit experience of experience working with somebody who had trained in Japan and what I loved about it, because he just let us dip our toes into it. 513 00:41:22,425 --> 00:41:33,255 Was the physicality of it, like you said, and how in the United States, because of Stans Lasky and, and, and the method, we kind of do things from the inside out. 514 00:41:33,255 --> 00:41:41,745 But tell me if I'm wrong here, but what it seemed to me was there was a lot of taking something on physically and then letting it get into you. 515 00:41:42,345 --> 00:41:49,595 And I, I actually loved it isn't it? And in fact, and it, and it seemed, it was a completely different experience. 516 00:41:49,595 --> 00:41:53,315 It, it felt more surreal and it, and enlivened me. 517 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,475 I, I loved the little bit of it that I did. 518 00:41:56,735 --> 00:41:56,855 Yeah. 519 00:41:57,045 --> 00:42:05,610 when Hamman used to say, suit the action to the word, and the word to the action, and, the way you play Shaw is completely different from the way you're gonna play Shepherd. 520 00:42:05,660 --> 00:42:14,625 and, and Sam Shepherd is about music and Shaw is about words and, so everything is has, has to be treated. 521 00:42:15,090 --> 00:42:19,530 According to the form, or you, you really can ruin something in Japan. 522 00:42:20,070 --> 00:42:24,065 They've spent centuries, refining the form. 523 00:42:24,575 --> 00:42:26,255 So yeah, it comes from the outside in. 524 00:42:26,260 --> 00:42:28,515 A lot of it is taught by re repetition. 525 00:42:28,965 --> 00:42:39,565 A lot of it is transmitted from father to son, it's a sexist, but like in no, they strap the baby on the dad's back when they're young and the father goes through the moves. 526 00:42:40,135 --> 00:42:45,400 And I, I struggled with it at first because, first of all, it's, some of it was completely foreign. 527 00:42:45,405 --> 00:42:52,240 Some of it I felt like I knew already in my body and, I'd worked with a, in a lot of the Greek stuff and I'm very physical. 528 00:42:52,240 --> 00:43:02,080 But they give you the fan and they show you something like three times and you're supposed to repeat it, And that's it, Even, I got hit because I didn't open a fan correctly or something. 529 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:03,040 So, they whack you. 530 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:10,055 And I was just like, my gosh, that does not happen back home or in the west, Right. 531 00:43:10,055 --> 00:43:16,705 And I, I, I remember just being enraged by this, tiny man who was like the master, who smacked me. 532 00:43:17,215 --> 00:43:18,255 But I digress. 533 00:43:18,255 --> 00:43:41,785 But yeah, very, very, a lot of things are from the outside in and, but when they, they talk about the, the ma and the why, this moment of expansiveness and know with silence and breath, where everything stops and you can't help but feel from that, Kabuki is very physical, So a lot of that has to, has to happen from the, from the outside in. 534 00:43:41,785 --> 00:43:43,405 I'd say BAU is different. 535 00:43:43,410 --> 00:43:48,925 Like Bau reminded me a little more of Grotowski work where it's very, very physical. 536 00:43:49,300 --> 00:44:05,630 And very internal and it's just kind of laid bare, laid bare well, it's, it is so, it's such an education to go to another country like that, that's had so many centuries of a technique that's developed. 537 00:44:05,630 --> 00:44:06,680 It's so different. 538 00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:07,370 Yeah. 539 00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:10,250 And so much tension and patience. 540 00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:18,260 just when you think about it, like the, the bunraku master puppeteers, like there's, there's one person for each part. 541 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:26,420 There's one puppeteer that spends his lifetime working on only the left arm of the puppet. 542 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,950 only the left arm, it's like, yeah. 543 00:44:30,980 --> 00:44:31,580 It, yeah. 544 00:44:31,580 --> 00:44:34,580 The, the, the puppetry, it was phenomenal. 545 00:44:34,970 --> 00:44:38,400 So emotional and lifelike and vulnerable. 546 00:44:38,730 --> 00:44:39,210 Yeah. 547 00:44:39,215 --> 00:44:39,470 It. 548 00:44:40,770 --> 00:44:41,280 It's true. 549 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:52,310 It is just sort of, everything they do there, like the, the flower arranging, the tea ceremonies, I would say it is close, close to perfection, just very enviable, that, that discipline. 550 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,980 Now you've also written some books. 551 00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:57,260 Yeah, I'm working on one now. 552 00:44:57,260 --> 00:45:00,350 I just, I must, I must finish this first draft. 553 00:45:00,350 --> 00:45:06,810 I, I do not wanna be one of those people who, for the, for the rest of their life, talks about the book they're working on. 554 00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:09,180 What are you working on? I hate those people. 555 00:45:10,860 --> 00:45:12,680 I'm afraid that it's gonna be me. 556 00:45:13,170 --> 00:45:13,830 Oh, no. 557 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:20,440 Well this book is a long time coming and it's really, I wrote a screenplay called Birthright. 558 00:45:21,505 --> 00:45:27,615 Which was about my adoption story and, and in essence meeting my biological parents. 559 00:45:27,615 --> 00:45:29,965 And what, what ensued after that. 560 00:45:30,535 --> 00:45:39,910 And I had some good feedback from it, but, I didn't keep pushing it and I didn't have the money to produce it, so it's it's on, on the desktop like a lot of things. 561 00:45:39,910 --> 00:45:47,920 But I had a friend who was very inspirational, who just kept saying, this is, you should write a book, the, these are stranger than fiction. 562 00:45:47,925 --> 00:45:49,510 These, these, this story. 563 00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:50,760 And just write a book. 564 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,570 And so writing a book it's auto fiction, I guess you'd call it. 565 00:45:55,570 --> 00:46:02,500 I don't wanna call it memoir because I do fictionalize some things and I'd like to stay pure to the term memoir. 566 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:08,295 Memoir, But I think auto fiction is the, the most current genre I can fit it into. 567 00:46:08,325 --> 00:46:11,205 It's kind of Genre bending a little bit. 568 00:46:11,295 --> 00:46:14,165 And yeah, so I've been working on that. 569 00:46:14,845 --> 00:46:20,225 So it's inspired about you meeting your biological parents? Ye yes. 570 00:46:20,225 --> 00:46:21,965 It's inspired by that. 571 00:46:22,025 --> 00:46:22,475 Yeah. 572 00:46:22,595 --> 00:46:29,660 There were, there was a set of circumstances that were kind of extraordinary that nobody really knew. 573 00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,110 So you wanna share what those were? No. 574 00:46:32,260 --> 00:46:32,750 Okay. 575 00:46:32,990 --> 00:46:34,310 Yeah, you'll have to read the book. 576 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:35,070 Ok. 577 00:46:35,070 --> 00:46:36,680 Well, it better happen then. 578 00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:37,630 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 579 00:46:39,170 --> 00:46:47,390 There was like a coincidence that really couldn't have been quite a coincidence, but, oh, well, that, that's like the, that's, that's part of it. 580 00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:48,500 It's not the whole thing. 581 00:46:48,980 --> 00:47:02,460 But, then we go back to those themes again of, identity and, and loss and, this discovery and so I just took a recent trip back to New York and, Stumbled upon a lot of the settings that are in the book, and that was kind of cool. 582 00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:04,050 Yeah. 583 00:47:04,110 --> 00:47:11,250 So it was, it, it made it all, fresh again, it, it's hard to, it's hard to write about and it's hard to write a book. 584 00:47:11,580 --> 00:47:13,740 It's easy to write a play in some ways. 585 00:47:13,740 --> 00:47:15,360 It's easy to write a performance. 586 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,080 It's easy. 587 00:47:16,085 --> 00:47:21,305 I've been at arts journalist too for a period of time when my kids were little, and, it's easy. 588 00:47:21,305 --> 00:47:37,435 You have a story, you have a word count, but a book is like this, this, this pool that you dive into and, then you, then you, then I get stuck in all this research, and then I go down this rabbit hole and then I, I, and then I get, and then it's just too much and I put it away. 589 00:47:37,435 --> 00:47:39,415 And then, I, I need some distance and. 590 00:47:40,405 --> 00:47:50,255 And then I, why is it, is it, was the structure good? Is it right? Is it point, what's the point of view? Is it, is it first person, third person, omni mission? does it matter? Like, I don't, so very wide open. 591 00:47:50,585 --> 00:47:59,605 There's all the rules and then you can break the rules, but you have to sort of know how you're breaking the rules and have some kind of pattern in the breaking of the rules, Yes, yes. 592 00:47:59,610 --> 00:48:13,135 I, I, I, I, I can understand that because in a, in a play or a screenplay, you have, your two act or your three act play, or your three act screenplay, and most, most screenplays follow that sort of structure. 593 00:48:13,135 --> 00:48:19,520 And, your limited in terms of describing the situation indoors or outdoors. 594 00:48:19,525 --> 00:48:21,620 You have the dialogue and then you have to keep things moving. 595 00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:24,350 But in a, in a book, you can kind of do whatever you want. 596 00:48:25,490 --> 00:48:25,850 Yeah. 597 00:48:25,855 --> 00:48:31,220 You as many pages as you feel like you can, yeah, you can, you can do what you want. 598 00:48:31,220 --> 00:48:33,290 And I'm just going to, I'm just doing what I want. 599 00:48:33,290 --> 00:48:34,850 I, I, I took a. 600 00:48:35,285 --> 00:48:43,955 A workshop with this writer and agent and, I, I just agonized during the whole thing about this, this point of view, cuz it's very important. 601 00:48:44,525 --> 00:48:55,095 But, I do like switch point of view, which is, to some editors and publishers and agents that's like a, and readers, that's like a, a, a sin. 602 00:48:56,025 --> 00:49:06,090 I was like, that's what I keep going back to that I'm in the story and then I'm, I comment on the story, I mean, and in my own form. 603 00:49:06,095 --> 00:49:08,400 So that's where I'm at now. 604 00:49:08,410 --> 00:49:15,855 I could write a, a, a pure memoir, right? I remember when I was the, but it's not, it's not happening like that. 605 00:49:15,855 --> 00:49:18,915 So I'm all about that cuz WY Handman too. 606 00:49:18,975 --> 00:49:20,295 See, he really stuck with me. 607 00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:27,435 He said ballast and he says it in this, Documentary, ballast yourself in reality, then take off. 608 00:49:28,135 --> 00:49:31,165 and it's really fundamental in any art form. 609 00:49:31,645 --> 00:49:33,625 Know the foundation. 610 00:49:33,775 --> 00:49:40,765 Know the classics, no Shakespeare and no moer and, and no, Shaw and no modern drama. 611 00:49:40,770 --> 00:49:42,865 And know it, know it, know how to play it. 612 00:49:43,345 --> 00:49:44,515 Know the music of it. 613 00:49:44,665 --> 00:49:50,155 analyze it, know, know you, know how to, how to find your objectives and your beats, all that. 614 00:49:50,605 --> 00:49:56,890 And then you wanna, you wanna do something different or what, could be called experimental or whatever. 615 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:07,890 Break the form, break it, know what you're breaking, and then break the form, break the conventions, start your own, I think it's possible with anything, but you have to know, you have to have the background. 616 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,230 And it is an interesting little scene. 617 00:50:10,260 --> 00:50:13,660 I don't know if you saw Tar with Kate Blanchett movie. 618 00:50:14,295 --> 00:50:29,385 It's a great scene that's become very controversial and I, I always wanna ask young people what they think of it, but she's in a, she's a conductor, and she's in a class, so remember the scene when she's at Julliard and she's teaching a class? Yes. 619 00:50:29,535 --> 00:50:30,105 Very much. 620 00:50:30,105 --> 00:50:31,515 I very much remember that scene. 621 00:50:31,955 --> 00:50:35,805 Remember that scene? And she, yeah, she said, and he said, I, I can't relate. 622 00:50:35,805 --> 00:50:40,065 I'm, I'm a person of color, and I, I can't relate to Bach. 623 00:50:40,065 --> 00:50:42,405 And she said, well, you, you better know Bach. 624 00:50:42,405 --> 00:50:50,215 Because, because of what he did, because of how he broke the rules and what he established, and how it influenced music. 625 00:50:50,275 --> 00:50:52,055 Every, every culture. 626 00:50:52,765 --> 00:50:55,255 And then you can decide what you wanna do about Bach. 627 00:50:55,255 --> 00:50:58,875 But, yeah, that scene was very controversial, right? Yes, it was. 628 00:50:58,875 --> 00:51:08,335 But I think that that scene sort of exactly outlines what we were discussing before about this, the conflict that exists right now in, in art. 629 00:51:08,845 --> 00:51:09,205 Right. 630 00:51:09,595 --> 00:51:12,595 And I loved that scene, and I can understand why people are upset with it. 631 00:51:12,925 --> 00:51:15,325 I can also understand why I think it's a great scene. 632 00:51:15,775 --> 00:51:16,075 Yeah. 633 00:51:16,345 --> 00:51:20,695 And I'm glad that they had the, the nerve to stick it in there and not take it outta the movie. 634 00:51:21,145 --> 00:51:22,795 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 635 00:51:22,795 --> 00:51:23,215 Me too. 636 00:51:23,425 --> 00:51:27,640 I was really because it makes people have a conversation and I'm glad that they did it right. 637 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:32,670 And it, it, and it is a controversial scene and I understand why, but I think it was important to keep it in. 638 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:34,170 Yeah, me too. 639 00:51:34,650 --> 00:51:35,070 Me too. 640 00:51:35,070 --> 00:51:40,620 I was, I was shocked too that they was in there and it's a question you have to have, right. 641 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,155 I mean and it's also, it also the whole thing about motivation. 642 00:51:44,155 --> 00:51:54,505 Like what was her motivation? Is she racist? Is she ageist? Is she not? Is she just trying to teach a lesson? And you can make all these judgments about a person, but you really don't know what's going on inside her head. 643 00:51:54,925 --> 00:51:55,225 Right. 644 00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:56,635 Until you have the conversation. 645 00:51:56,935 --> 00:51:57,145 Yeah. 646 00:51:57,145 --> 00:51:58,195 Until you ask her, Yeah. 647 00:51:58,375 --> 00:51:59,605 And decide if she's telling the truth. 648 00:51:59,935 --> 00:52:00,265 Right. 649 00:52:00,395 --> 00:52:00,955 Right. 650 00:52:01,055 --> 00:52:04,565 it's, it's so complicated and we're facing these things and I hope that we can. 651 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,560 Well, eventually, we'll, we'll sort it out. 652 00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:10,970 See, this is the question and the conversations we should be having. 653 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:11,900 Absolutely. 654 00:52:11,900 --> 00:52:14,690 I'm so excited right now that we're having this Yeah. 655 00:52:14,690 --> 00:52:15,410 That we're having. 656 00:52:15,410 --> 00:52:16,070 But I mean, yeah. 657 00:52:16,370 --> 00:52:23,840 We should also be able to have these conversations together with the younger generation and with Bob Rock artists, Yeah. 658 00:52:24,140 --> 00:52:44,155 Instead of just having the door shut, it's like why, why can't we have these conversations? I have tried a couple of times, and I think every time it's been on Zoom and what's happened every single time, the person I was trying to have a conversation with or a group of people, some people actually get so upset to hang up and, and I did nothing disrespectful. 659 00:52:44,275 --> 00:52:51,085 I just asked a question because I'm trying to understand something and you people get so emotional they can't do it. 660 00:52:51,655 --> 00:52:52,005 No. 661 00:52:52,005 --> 00:52:56,575 They, they feel like they, they don't have to and don't want to teach. 662 00:52:57,130 --> 00:53:00,190 Anyone or explain anything. 663 00:53:00,490 --> 00:53:00,580 Yeah. 664 00:53:00,580 --> 00:53:03,210 It's called emotional labor, I guess, from Yeah. 665 00:53:03,310 --> 00:53:03,550 Yeah. 666 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,060 Which I don't understand that either. 667 00:53:06,060 --> 00:53:14,520 I mean, everyone has to do some labor if you're gonna understand what's going on in another person's head or what it's like to be in their shoes. 668 00:53:14,530 --> 00:53:15,870 Right, right. 669 00:53:16,710 --> 00:53:18,090 But we'll get there. 670 00:53:20,100 --> 00:53:21,060 I have so much hope. 671 00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:28,940 I, I think that people, everything always swings back and forth and somehow gets to the middle and then things get screwed up again, and then we get back to the middle. 672 00:53:28,945 --> 00:53:33,980 And right now we're just sort of on one side of the pendulum, I believe, and we'll retrain. 673 00:53:34,030 --> 00:53:34,310 Yeah. 674 00:53:34,670 --> 00:53:35,000 Yeah. 675 00:53:35,450 --> 00:53:42,590 It's painful being on one side of the pendulum, but it's the hardest one I've ever been through in my lifetime. 676 00:53:42,980 --> 00:53:43,550 Yeah. 677 00:53:43,790 --> 00:53:50,420 In terms of, in terms of the art, the art, art, art world or the, the performance folder or entertainment or whatever you wanna call it. 678 00:53:50,420 --> 00:53:52,910 And, we should be able to do work about this. 679 00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:54,500 We really should be able to put Yeah. 680 00:53:55,115 --> 00:53:59,405 Put this in a play and put it on stage and let people chew on it and think about it. 681 00:53:59,525 --> 00:54:00,875 Yeah, yeah. 682 00:54:01,015 --> 00:54:01,405 Yeah. 683 00:54:01,885 --> 00:54:02,065 Yeah. 684 00:54:02,065 --> 00:54:05,065 I mean, and I understand where people's grievances come from. 685 00:54:05,065 --> 00:54:06,115 I totally do. 686 00:54:06,505 --> 00:54:08,815 Whether it's age or race or whatever. 687 00:54:08,815 --> 00:54:09,535 I understand. 688 00:54:10,535 --> 00:54:26,135 What advice would you give somebody who wants to get into, to, into this world of theater or film or writing? I don't think it's responsible for older people to put people in leadership roles that have no training or experience. 689 00:54:26,735 --> 00:54:35,445 I think if you wanna get into it, commit to it, get the training, if it's, if, if it's the burning passion, then, put the discipline behind it. 690 00:54:36,045 --> 00:54:38,865 Figure out what your voice is and what you wanna say. 691 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,160 really, I mean, there's so many ways to go about things. 692 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:42,790 I, I. 693 00:54:43,345 --> 00:54:46,825 I left the commercial world and sometimes I regret that. 694 00:54:46,825 --> 00:54:53,305 But when I see people I know on, on television usually, but I know that, how that feels. 695 00:54:53,875 --> 00:54:54,295 Yeah. 696 00:54:54,295 --> 00:55:02,005 So, I don't know, you have to decide like why you're an artist and, I do think people should get other skills. 697 00:55:02,005 --> 00:55:20,199 I, I do think my father said that and I said it to my kids, like, you don't wanna be a waiter your whole life, right? if things don't work out, you should know how to, how to monetize, monetize different aspects of your, your skillset so that you're not dependent. 698 00:55:20,659 --> 00:55:25,339 I think that there's a desperation in this business that's really dangerous. 699 00:55:25,369 --> 00:55:41,159 It draws people that have a lot of trauma and a lot of unresolved issues and a lot of insecurities and, That emptiness, that abyss, And when they're not working, you just kind of fall into that abyss, oh, I'm worthless. 700 00:55:41,159 --> 00:55:43,349 And that, it's just very dangerous, I think. 701 00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:45,659 And you have to get your shit together. 702 00:55:45,659 --> 00:55:52,599 You have to be grounded, you have to, have a center, you have to be stable, so all those things are important. 703 00:55:52,699 --> 00:55:54,589 So, yeah. 704 00:55:54,709 --> 00:56:01,719 Just just as a footnote, cuz I've been talking about so many things that I did in the, the nineties, the two thousands. 705 00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:08,094 But so since I came here, I did do a it was, it was a, it was in the march during Covid. 706 00:56:08,979 --> 00:56:29,954 Dragon Theater, which no longer exists, but I did do a show, the Making of American Carnage was like a solo satire almost of the whole experience, cuz it was a lot of a lot of replacing of people, a revolving door of actors for, one, one reason or another had things going on in their life where they couldn't commit to the project. 707 00:56:29,954 --> 00:56:32,614 And so anyway, that was interesting. 708 00:56:32,674 --> 00:56:44,214 And then I've, I've just done a lot of readings of new plays and some online, some live, but something I'm working on, which is a, is a long-term project that, but I'm excited about it. 709 00:56:44,214 --> 00:57:00,204 It's about climate change and it's gonna be bicoastal and we're trying to do a live performance and a virtual performance and somehow integrate that and even incorporate the, the, this the mid coast, right? The Gulf Coast. 710 00:57:00,864 --> 00:57:12,124 So I have a, a partner in New York who runs Peculiar Theater Works, and so we're working with our writers now and, it's a long haul, but so is climate change, right. 711 00:57:13,114 --> 00:57:14,914 And it's a piece about climate change. 712 00:57:14,964 --> 00:57:15,444 Is it a. 713 00:57:15,994 --> 00:57:21,454 Yeah, I'd say like we have the writers working on different, they're, they're each working on their different scenes. 714 00:57:21,454 --> 00:57:34,234 I don't know if it's going to wind up being like a series or a play or a play and performance, we'd like a live component, but we also wanna explore a lot of the, the new technologies. 715 00:57:34,714 --> 00:57:37,914 And that's gonna be the, the hard, the hardest part, I think. 716 00:57:38,394 --> 00:57:38,754 Yeah. 717 00:57:38,784 --> 00:57:40,494 But I think that's a good, good idea. 718 00:57:40,494 --> 00:57:50,214 Like you said earlier, I think we have to incorporate that into our performances for, to, to stay up with, to stay current, to get people to come. 719 00:57:51,164 --> 00:57:55,344 I saw a, oh, who, what was the writer? I can't remember the writer. 720 00:57:55,344 --> 00:57:56,004 It's a writer. 721 00:57:56,004 --> 00:57:57,534 A, a, a classic. 722 00:57:57,534 --> 00:58:02,304 I can't remember who it was right off the top of my head, but it was at a c t about 10 years ago. 723 00:58:02,664 --> 00:58:11,274 And it was a Canadian theater company that came down and they did music and, and they did like gymnastics and it was a, it was like a classic play. 724 00:58:11,274 --> 00:58:25,254 I can't remember which one, but they had a screen that filled the entire back of the Gary Theater and it was video, black and white with incredible sound that sounded extremely realistic. 725 00:58:25,464 --> 00:58:28,644 And it was a subway most of the time with a train going by. 726 00:58:28,974 --> 00:58:37,364 And people on stage would go through the screen and then all of a sudden they would be in the play as an actor on the. 727 00:58:38,324 --> 00:58:41,194 Like just continuing the scene seamlessly. 728 00:58:41,354 --> 00:58:41,774 Yeah. 729 00:58:42,014 --> 00:58:42,344 Yeah. 730 00:58:42,344 --> 00:58:43,244 It was incredible. 731 00:58:43,394 --> 00:58:48,794 Isn't that great? Was that Robert LaPage, the Canadian? I think so, yeah. 732 00:58:49,064 --> 00:58:52,244 I feel like, and they had these amazing musicians and all the actors were musicians. 733 00:58:52,634 --> 00:58:53,084 Yeah. 734 00:58:53,904 --> 00:58:55,244 I, I love stuff like that. 735 00:58:55,304 --> 00:58:55,814 Oh, me too. 736 00:58:55,814 --> 00:58:57,434 It was, it was just amazing. 737 00:58:58,154 --> 00:59:00,194 So I just hope we can do more of that kind of thing. 738 00:59:01,634 --> 00:59:04,424 Well, it sounds interesting what you're doing with this climate change thing. 739 00:59:04,429 --> 00:59:05,914 I'll be looking forward to that. 740 00:59:06,634 --> 00:59:06,844 Yeah. 741 00:59:06,844 --> 00:59:09,974 I hope I can actually, produce the West Coast end here. 742 00:59:09,974 --> 00:59:11,914 I might have to go to LA to do it. 743 00:59:13,094 --> 00:59:18,524 Did you, did you direct a play up in Sin and Selmo a couple years ago? I did last summer. 744 00:59:18,704 --> 00:59:19,334 Last summer. 745 00:59:19,334 --> 00:59:19,794 That was great. 746 00:59:19,794 --> 00:59:27,234 Oh, what, what, what was it? My first live return to the theater it was Will Enos, the, the realistic Joneses. 747 00:59:27,924 --> 00:59:30,684 It's a very difficult play, very quirky. 748 00:59:31,419 --> 00:59:39,789 he says he's very influenced by Samuel Beckett, who as well as I, I mean, waiting for Goudeau is one of, if not my favorite plays. 749 00:59:39,789 --> 00:59:45,989 And I, I did direct a version of that very challenging, and and I could see why he says that. 750 00:59:45,989 --> 00:59:54,019 But it, I guess it was the, kind of the obtuse language, this sort of going nowhere kind of scenario. 751 00:59:54,019 --> 01:00:03,919 Two couples, one older, one younger, both of them, the males, the males of the couples have illnesses, the same illness, and you find that out towards the end of the play. 752 01:00:04,369 --> 01:00:08,729 So it deals with, mortality and aging as well. 753 01:00:09,209 --> 01:00:12,389 It was a challenging experience though, I must say. 754 01:00:12,479 --> 01:00:23,959 I, I, you asked in these questions about like, failure, right? I, I don't, I wouldn't say I failed at, at, at the experience totally, but. 755 01:00:24,649 --> 01:00:29,534 It wasn't, I, I usually feel, you always have a sense, oh, I could do more, more. 756 01:00:29,534 --> 01:00:35,044 It could be more, it could be more, but I don't think it, manifested on the level that I, I wanted it to. 757 01:00:35,049 --> 01:00:38,884 And, and some of it was really out of my control. 758 01:00:39,124 --> 01:00:40,594 Just the circumstances. 759 01:00:41,164 --> 01:00:48,154 And I think it's really hard for me as a director not to start with ground zero. 760 01:00:48,604 --> 01:01:01,054 I like training my actors a certain way, and I, I, if they don't have those skills, especially if I'm creating something that has a very physical vocabulary to it, I want them to be open to that. 761 01:01:01,714 --> 01:01:04,414 I like casting my people from the beginning. 762 01:01:05,384 --> 01:01:19,934 I don't like being told who I'm gonna be working with if I haven't worked with them, and I don't know if there's a compatibility, So And I just, it's just a different, I just have a very, and certain materials we talked about, you gotta go on the inside out. 763 01:01:19,934 --> 01:01:28,654 You gotta go from the inside out, unless it's very stylized or very physical or, classical in a certain way, you have to go from the inside out. 764 01:01:28,654 --> 01:01:35,714 And so, sometimes actors are, are not willing to do that, So I dunno, I hear you. 765 01:01:35,824 --> 01:01:38,074 Yeah, no, I totally understand what you're saying. 766 01:01:38,184 --> 01:01:45,914 I mean, I'll, I'll just I'll be more specific so that you don't have to, I mean, I had to direct a, a piner Piner play once betrayal. 767 01:01:46,304 --> 01:01:49,344 And, it's sort of like that it's not linear. 768 01:01:49,824 --> 01:01:52,734 It requires a lot of insight out acting. 769 01:01:52,739 --> 01:01:58,284 And I had one actor who wasn't coming to rehearsal and I had to replace him last minute. 770 01:01:58,344 --> 01:02:05,124 Fortunately, I got a really good actor, but I had a, I had a weak area and it was the set designer. 771 01:02:06,039 --> 01:02:07,719 And the set wasn't designed. 772 01:02:08,199 --> 01:02:15,369 And there's so many scenes and they happen like this, and you have to set something up, especially when you don't have money to make it work. 773 01:02:15,459 --> 01:02:16,379 And and it didn't. 774 01:02:16,859 --> 01:02:18,939 And, and then I let somebody else do the sound. 775 01:02:18,939 --> 01:02:24,909 And it wasn't interesting enough between the scene changes and people were like, why is this going on forever? You've seen changes. 776 01:02:25,179 --> 01:02:36,189 I mean, when you do these plays that, that are like really physical or sort of abstract or whatever, you really have, everything kind of has to fit together because there are a lot of areas that can fall down. 777 01:02:36,939 --> 01:02:37,149 Yeah. 778 01:02:37,149 --> 01:02:38,409 It has to be tight, Yeah. 779 01:02:38,409 --> 01:02:38,889 Yeah. 780 01:02:38,889 --> 01:02:43,239 And that's, that's the director's prerogative and the eye, and the rhythm. 781 01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:46,359 And you have to, you can collaborate. 782 01:02:46,809 --> 01:02:59,609 And I, I, I know that, if you have a company and you're collaborating, right? But I know that, that the, the style now is more collaborative where everybody has a say in it, but you still have to have the leader of the ship. 783 01:03:00,134 --> 01:03:05,849 The, the pilot of the plane, the person that asked you to go, a hundred miles into the wall with, with you. 784 01:03:06,359 --> 01:03:18,239 Is that the style now? I've heard that from my, my daughter who's in the theater and my, my, actually my husband said that he's been reading a lot about, that leadership styles now are much more collaborative. 785 01:03:18,239 --> 01:03:28,209 Everybody feels like they have to have a say and an equal, equal, part equal, say, nothing gets decided till everybody agrees. 786 01:03:28,209 --> 01:03:31,209 And yeah, it's a lot of time for that. 787 01:03:31,239 --> 01:03:32,079 That's a lot of time. 788 01:03:32,079 --> 01:03:33,939 And that, that has to be ground up too. 789 01:03:33,939 --> 01:03:47,379 That's like developing, we're all developing this together, but I've been in those situations and sometimes they work when there's a lot of trust in history and sometimes you still have to have the person that at the end of the line who says yes or no. 790 01:03:48,114 --> 01:03:54,054 Well, especially when you're producing a play, and as you said before, it's difficult and part of it is a financial issue. 791 01:03:54,144 --> 01:03:58,374 And you have 3, 4, 5 weeks maybe to put the thing together. 792 01:03:59,154 --> 01:04:04,074 And if there's not one person kind of making sure everything keeps driving forward, you can get way behind. 793 01:04:04,214 --> 01:04:04,774 Right. 794 01:04:05,409 --> 01:04:08,919 And, I, I see why people work together with the same people again and again. 795 01:04:08,919 --> 01:04:09,189 Right. 796 01:04:09,189 --> 01:04:11,169 But then you also, oh, it's not fair. 797 01:04:11,169 --> 01:04:12,159 You need new blood. 798 01:04:12,159 --> 01:04:13,659 You're not letting anyone in the door. 799 01:04:13,659 --> 01:04:27,414 But, I, I just have a certain ethic, like because it's, it's how I was trained and it's like an off Broadway and off off Broadway thing, and it's, people yelling, yelling at me, right? Like, you eat me sleep theater, So I can't help it. 800 01:04:27,474 --> 01:04:34,374 I, I've tried to like, ease up a little when people have, hobbies and this and family and that, and I gotta go do this. 801 01:04:34,374 --> 01:04:36,864 I gotta surf, I gotta go eat pizza, whatever it is. 802 01:04:38,044 --> 01:04:40,104 But San Diego, I gotta surf. 803 01:04:40,314 --> 01:04:40,764 Yeah. 804 01:04:41,094 --> 01:04:53,554 But, there's just a, a way of ethics, like separating the, the pedestrian from, from what's more like what's the word? Sacred, the pedestrian life from what this, the sacred space is, right. 805 01:04:53,554 --> 01:04:58,369 The empty space, And, and there's just, if you, if you don't have that, it's a disaster. 806 01:04:58,369 --> 01:05:03,439 You try to lay it down, you try to inculcate people, you, you try to establish that. 807 01:05:03,439 --> 01:05:06,299 And people still, they do what they want. 808 01:05:06,299 --> 01:05:09,179 They, they, they bring in all their issues and problems. 809 01:05:09,179 --> 01:05:10,019 They're late. 810 01:05:10,499 --> 01:05:19,229 I mean, if I say come to rehearsal and know your lines, you've had six months to work, since you've been cast, we don't have much time. 811 01:05:19,229 --> 01:05:20,429 And I don't like to do that. 812 01:05:20,429 --> 01:05:44,959 I like to discover and learn the lines through discovery, but sometimes you have to be pretty much off book, especially if you have a play that's very complicated or the language is very obtuse and, it's not, it's not like a typical arc and, it's very confusing and there's so many this, that, but that and you wanna nail all of them, And they don't come to rehearsal with their lines, memories. 813 01:05:45,489 --> 01:05:49,459 And you're spending half a year rehearsal helping them memorize their lines. 814 01:05:49,459 --> 01:05:49,759 Oh, I know. 815 01:05:49,819 --> 01:05:56,479 It's just, I, I was in a play a few months ago, I won't say where or what cuz I don't wanna implicate anybody. 816 01:05:56,839 --> 01:06:04,129 But it was with a, a bunch of very young people and I probably was the oldest person there just because of the way the play was set up. 817 01:06:04,129 --> 01:06:09,739 And the director said, I want you to come in off book on the first rehearsal because we were cast like six months before. 818 01:06:10,159 --> 01:06:10,459 Right. 819 01:06:10,759 --> 01:06:13,699 So I learned all my lines and it was a lot of lines. 820 01:06:14,299 --> 01:06:23,984 And I walked in and we did the and I realized I was the only one out of this cast of 20 people I think who knew their lines. 821 01:06:25,384 --> 01:06:27,904 I was just, I couldn't believe it. 822 01:06:27,984 --> 01:06:31,294 And, and you were probably the oldest one, right? I was. 823 01:06:31,564 --> 01:06:38,939 So you had the, the, you had the, the best excuse not to be memorized cuz it's harder to memorize as you age, Yeah. 824 01:06:38,999 --> 01:06:39,179 Yeah. 825 01:06:39,179 --> 01:06:42,209 Fortunately I'm still okay with that, but yeah, it is a little harder. 826 01:06:42,269 --> 01:06:47,379 Yeah, it is harder because I remember when I was younger, if I had to, I could, get 'em all done in a week. 827 01:06:47,949 --> 01:06:48,999 The world's changing. 828 01:06:49,719 --> 01:06:49,779 Yeah. 829 01:06:49,779 --> 01:06:54,789 Just as I curmudgeons, right? Yeah. 830 01:06:54,789 --> 01:06:58,359 It's, it's it's enough to make you wanna just throw your arms up a little bit. 831 01:06:58,359 --> 01:06:58,719 Right. 832 01:06:58,909 --> 01:06:59,629 Yeah. 833 01:07:00,019 --> 01:07:00,439 Yeah. 834 01:07:00,919 --> 01:07:26,949 I'm, I'm getting better though, at learning, like, it's not really worth it my time and my energy and my skills, if it's not worth it, if I get those signals that this isn't gonna work out, then I just have to follow them, even if I really wanna be doing something, And, and sometimes it's like that, I was recently gonna have a little small part and a small film here, and it was just like they were. 835 01:07:27,414 --> 01:07:30,474 They just didn't have their organization together. 836 01:07:30,474 --> 01:07:33,894 there are big gaps of time where no one's communicating. 837 01:07:34,324 --> 01:07:40,204 they're expecting you for nine hours, then it became 12 hours and they're not necessarily gonna feed you. 838 01:07:40,564 --> 01:07:45,334 And it's just like, well, yeah, there's a lot of that going on with film in the Bay Area. 839 01:07:45,784 --> 01:07:46,624 It's a hobby. 840 01:07:47,134 --> 01:07:47,764 Yeah. 841 01:07:47,824 --> 01:07:55,519 it's a, a lot of technical people, they're doing these ultra low budget passion projects, that's what they call them. 842 01:07:55,999 --> 01:08:05,589 And I'm not really in, even if the script is good or the role is good, like I don't, I'm not, I, what, what's that about? It's like you're just a vehicle on someone's little hobby. 843 01:08:05,589 --> 01:08:07,119 It's a home movie almost. 844 01:08:07,269 --> 01:08:07,539 Yeah. 845 01:08:07,539 --> 01:08:10,899 And then sometimes they don't even put it out there for anybody to see. 846 01:08:11,229 --> 01:08:11,719 Yeah. 847 01:08:11,979 --> 01:08:15,639 I've done a few things where it's okay, where's the movie? Well, I didn't really finish it. 848 01:08:16,809 --> 01:08:17,399 Oh yeah. 849 01:08:17,969 --> 01:08:21,449 Oh, you, you expect, like even on freebies, you expect credit. 850 01:08:22,399 --> 01:08:29,139 A copy and something that says you're gonna get a copy and you're gonna get a credit, you're gonna get paid or you're gonna get fed. 851 01:08:29,499 --> 01:08:31,329 I mean, right. 852 01:08:31,779 --> 01:08:40,179 I, I have a film, I'd like to do a short film, and I'm gonna pay, I'm gonna pay the actors and I'm gonna feed them, and I'm gonna do it. 853 01:08:40,179 --> 01:08:40,629 Right. 854 01:08:40,679 --> 01:08:48,969 what's it gonna be about? It's, it's just, I just wanna use two people and it's it's, it's again, going into the world of ai. 855 01:08:49,399 --> 01:09:01,639 and one of the characters is kind of, is, is prescient and not quite, what the other character wanted because she's going to have feelings and discover things. 856 01:09:01,644 --> 01:09:06,569 So, but then there's like a, a little what's it called? These words are just escaping me. 857 01:09:06,984 --> 01:09:11,454 when you have an ending that's kind of like a surprise twist twist, a twist, twist ending. 858 01:09:11,514 --> 01:09:11,874 Okay. 859 01:09:11,904 --> 01:09:13,494 Yeah, there's a twist ending. 860 01:09:13,884 --> 01:09:16,874 So that, that's kind of where I'm at now and exploring. 861 01:09:16,874 --> 01:09:25,884 I just started writing it, but, I wanna, I don't wanna juggle too many balls at once, cuz then you feel like, I know people do that, but it kind of drives me crazy. 862 01:09:25,884 --> 01:09:34,694 So, I heard you talking about Uncanny Valley on the, on the other show and there's actually a play called Uncanny Valley. 863 01:09:35,144 --> 01:09:37,244 I know the pair did that, right? They did. 864 01:09:37,244 --> 01:09:38,624 Did you see it? No. 865 01:09:38,774 --> 01:09:39,224 Oh no. 866 01:09:39,284 --> 01:09:48,604 But they did it in San Diego too, and I, I just got, became fascinated with the term, that that where it's just so, wow, this person seems human. 867 01:09:48,609 --> 01:09:50,704 They seem really human, but they're not. 868 01:09:50,704 --> 01:09:52,414 But they almost are. 869 01:09:52,414 --> 01:09:52,834 Right. 870 01:09:52,839 --> 01:09:56,094 But yeah, I really enjoyed that show. 871 01:09:56,614 --> 01:09:58,294 I, I, I, yeah, I wanna read it. 872 01:09:58,684 --> 01:10:00,244 Yeah, it's, it's really good. 873 01:10:00,724 --> 01:10:01,384 It's really good. 874 01:10:01,999 --> 01:10:08,449 There's a TV show called The Orville, that's the, the brainchild of Seth Mark Farland on Hulu. 875 01:10:08,449 --> 01:10:09,289 I don't know if you've heard of it. 876 01:10:09,289 --> 01:10:10,279 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 877 01:10:10,489 --> 01:10:24,949 And there's a character on there called Isaac, and he's from a species of people who are AI robots who took over their planet and killed all of the living people They find out later, wow. 878 01:10:24,949 --> 01:10:37,439 He's on the crew of the Orville and he's that, that species of robots is at war with people from earth, although he's on the earth people's side for various reasons. 879 01:10:38,309 --> 01:10:46,109 But it's fascinating because he claims to have no feelings, kind of like Spock, right, in the original Sar trek. 880 01:10:46,409 --> 01:10:53,379 But he constantly claims that he has no feelings, and you have to believe him because he is a robot with, an ai. 881 01:10:53,379 --> 01:11:00,654 And he is, his intelligence is so much superior to everyone else's, however, You just don't believe him. 882 01:11:01,194 --> 01:11:04,464 And, and it's very confusing and it's, it's really, I love it. 883 01:11:04,464 --> 01:11:05,784 That's my favorite part of the show. 884 01:11:06,234 --> 01:11:06,954 Oh, that's cool. 885 01:11:07,044 --> 01:11:07,314 Yeah. 886 01:11:07,394 --> 01:11:07,884 Yeah. 887 01:11:07,884 --> 01:11:09,444 You get a chance you can watch it. 888 01:11:09,444 --> 01:11:11,404 And the Orville Okay. 889 01:11:11,409 --> 01:11:11,694 Yeah. 890 01:11:11,934 --> 01:11:12,354 Yeah. 891 01:11:12,924 --> 01:11:17,284 I mean, season one is a lot of wacky humor, sort of family guyish and I loved it. 892 01:11:17,284 --> 01:11:18,394 But the critics pinned it. 893 01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:27,994 And then as season two and three evolve, it gets more serious and more just like regular Star Trek and less humor, although he still keeps it in, but it's not so over the top. 894 01:11:28,744 --> 01:11:30,214 But that character is fascinating. 895 01:11:30,219 --> 01:11:31,204 I find him fascinating. 896 01:11:31,654 --> 01:11:33,484 Cause I think that's something we're gonna be dealing with. 897 01:11:34,144 --> 01:11:35,584 Well, we're dealing with it now. 898 01:11:35,614 --> 01:11:35,824 Yeah. 899 01:11:35,824 --> 01:11:37,654 I mean, especially with this new chat thing. 900 01:11:37,654 --> 01:11:38,974 This chat, G P T. 901 01:11:39,274 --> 01:11:39,764 Yeah. 902 01:11:40,264 --> 01:11:40,624 Yeah. 903 01:11:40,864 --> 01:11:41,404 Frightening. 904 01:11:42,124 --> 01:11:42,284 Frightening. 905 01:11:42,334 --> 01:11:42,694 Yeah. 906 01:11:42,694 --> 01:11:48,454 It could be, it could be so helpful to, to the world, and it could also destroy the world. 907 01:11:48,934 --> 01:11:56,164 I, I was reading an article about the Sam, I can't remember his last name, but he's like the, the creator of the Frankenstein. 908 01:11:56,674 --> 01:11:58,774 And it was in the Times last week. 909 01:11:59,224 --> 01:12:05,259 And, he's just like, he's this young dude and he's like, I, I think it's gonna be all, I think it's gonna be okay. 910 01:12:05,264 --> 01:12:05,684 and it's, mm-hmm. 911 01:12:06,464 --> 01:12:13,724 And, and there's been like many, many AI companies that are trying to put a stop to it because they think it's out, it's gonna get outta control. 912 01:12:14,084 --> 01:12:17,234 I think I heard that guy talking also somewhere. 913 01:12:17,834 --> 01:12:18,194 Yeah. 914 01:12:19,604 --> 01:12:20,384 Well, we'll see. 915 01:12:20,384 --> 01:12:21,194 It's gonna happen fast. 916 01:12:21,764 --> 01:12:24,164 I'm glad I won't be alive for all of this. 917 01:12:24,244 --> 01:12:32,229 I, I, I have to honestly say that I'm, I'm, I, I really don't wanna be in the, in the far future where we're all robots. 918 01:12:32,499 --> 01:12:38,264 I, I, I can't even deal with American Express or whoever else I call, and it's a robot, and I know it. 919 01:12:38,714 --> 01:12:43,479 And they're saying, press number one, Would you? I just can't, I just start screaming at them. 920 01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:44,529 You are a robot. 921 01:12:44,579 --> 01:12:47,699 so, and it sounds like a real person, but it doesn't. 922 01:12:47,729 --> 01:12:51,459 Yeah, I know, but it doesn't, there's something inside, this isn't really a person. 923 01:12:51,669 --> 01:12:51,849 Yeah. 924 01:12:51,849 --> 01:12:53,049 They're lacking that. 925 01:12:53,499 --> 01:12:55,149 It's the uncanny valley, right? Yeah. 926 01:12:55,154 --> 01:12:59,879 They're lacking like that little, the veneer or something like underneath the veneer. 927 01:12:59,884 --> 01:13:05,634 They're the, there any kind of relational quality, any empathy, anything, they're lacking it. 928 01:13:06,084 --> 01:13:12,264 You tell, I think there's gonna come a time where we won't be able to tell, and that's, it's coming already. 929 01:13:12,264 --> 01:13:17,084 You see some of these, these videos, what do they call 'em? When they do the deep fake? Yeah. 930 01:13:17,089 --> 01:13:17,544 Yeah. 931 01:13:17,994 --> 01:13:19,614 I mean some of them are pretty good. 932 01:13:19,834 --> 01:13:20,324 Yeah. 933 01:13:20,379 --> 01:13:22,239 It's getting harder and harder to tell. 934 01:13:22,659 --> 01:13:30,634 And that's scary because you could have the leader of a country like waging war or something and, and he didn't really wage war. 935 01:13:30,654 --> 01:13:31,174 Right. 936 01:13:31,804 --> 01:13:33,014 On tv, Right. 937 01:13:33,284 --> 01:13:39,734 Well, what about that? When I was in New York, I saw this I went to the Whitney and they had a very, I think it was called reconfigured. 938 01:13:39,974 --> 01:13:44,694 It's a very small part, very small exhibit that they didn't really talk about it. 939 01:13:44,694 --> 01:13:48,644 It was like, besides their permanent collection, it was the best thing in the museum. 940 01:13:48,649 --> 01:13:54,124 And it, they had this whole creation of the, and they kind of morphed and deformed her. 941 01:13:54,124 --> 01:13:59,914 But I don't know if you remember the, the AI that Microsoft created, I think in 2016. 942 01:13:59,914 --> 01:14:05,914 And then they had to shut it down because she was basically saying what, what, what people were telling her to say. 943 01:14:06,304 --> 01:14:08,644 And it was stuff like, it was anti-Semitic. 944 01:14:08,644 --> 01:14:09,724 It was fascist. 945 01:14:09,724 --> 01:14:11,044 It was misogynist. 946 01:14:11,254 --> 01:14:13,474 She was supposed to be like a young girl. 947 01:14:14,044 --> 01:14:17,454 She was just repeating like horrible things, horrible. 948 01:14:17,974 --> 01:14:26,824 So then, this guy created this piece about it where, and he totally deformed the face and he has her commenting on what happened to her. 949 01:14:26,829 --> 01:14:31,799 And it was, and it's like meta, I mean, you don't know what's real and what, and it was great. 950 01:14:31,889 --> 01:14:33,999 I'm like, Thanks, Amy. 951 01:14:34,359 --> 01:14:35,229 Covered the gamut. 952 01:14:35,559 --> 01:14:36,939 Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. 953 01:14:38,079 --> 01:14:41,139 Thanks everybody for making it there to the end. 954 01:14:42,259 --> 01:14:56,409 I'm so glad that you stuck around and if you enjoyed this, which I'm sure you did, please give me a rating on Apple Podcast, a favorable rating, and tell your friends about this so that we can get more listeners. 955 01:14:58,269 --> 01:15:04,959 And again, until next time, I will see you on the boards. 956 01:15:05,919 --> 01:15:09,259 Take care of yourselves, babe, baby.